Ivan Mikushin (Apr 12 2023 at 17:28): Ivan Mikushin (Apr 12 2023 at 17:28):I've noticed this PR (https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wasmtime/pull/5288) hasn't had any activity since Mar 3. Function references is listed as a pre-requisite to Wasm GC, so seems pretty important to get this in. Is anybody working on this? Any idea if this is still getting merged any time soon?
fitzgen (he/him) (Apr 12 2023 at 17:58):@Luna Phipps-Costin @Daniel Hillerström: are you still working on that pull request? anything we can do to unblock you?
Daniel Hillerström (Apr 12 2023 at 19:11):@fitzgen (he/him) yes, I am actively working on it. I am currently blocked on a paper deadline this Saturday :-)) I think what I need help with addressing is where to add the error paths for the embedder side of things (c.f. https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wasmtime/pull/5288#discussion_r1126569577). I am quite eager to land the patch as it will make it much easier for me to keep up with changes to wasmtime on my continuations branch
fitzgen (he/him) (Apr 12 2023 at 20:28):I've been thinking a lot about the embedder API side of things as I work on the RFC for wasm-gc, will share more soon
unfortunately, I don't think Alex's suggestion to skip the embedder API as a temporary stopgap to unblock other work is actually feasible since we will need the embedder API to get .wast tests running
Daniel Hillerström (Apr 12 2023 at 20:33):OK, what path forward do you suggest?
fitzgen (he/him) (Apr 12 2023 at 21:18):I think we will need to properly address the embedder API, I have a couple ideas, but need to talk it over with folks to decide which path is best. should have more guidance by the time you're done with your paper deadline :)
Daniel Hillerström (Apr 13 2023 at 07:29):Excellent thanks! Maybe we can meet at the end of next week, or the week after, such that I can learn more about your ideas?
fitzgen (he/him) (Apr 13 2023 at 15:53):how would monday at 11:30am pacific work?
Daniel Hillerström (Apr 13 2023 at 20:43):@fitzgen (he/him) that ought to work for me, thanks! (Monday April 17)
Ivan Mikushin (Apr 13 2023 at 22:34):(deleted)
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:08):@fitzgen (he/him) re https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wasmtime/pull/7943 and the FuncType field of TypedFunc, might be faster to do this here -- two comments of yours indicate we can remove it via WasmTy for TypedFunc<...>, but isn't the type still needed to thread through to call_raw?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:09):e.g. somehow I thought we needed to have type information to flow into the runtime type-checks of the arguments
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:10):the only reason the type is needed to thread through to call_raw is for runtime checks, which would no longer be needed if we stop doing runtime checks :)
and we could stop doing runtime checks, but still allow static typing of functions that use concrete type refernces via impl WasmTy for TypedFunc
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:10):we'll still need runtime checks for gc types though right?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:10):e.g. (ref $struct_type)
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:10):so not for anything currently but needed in the future soon
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:10):I think we could have TypedStruct<(...)>
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:11):oh you're thinking we can skip the derive?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:11):or make it much simpler?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:12):I suppose you're thinking like TypedStruct<(i32, Mut<i32>)> for mutable fields?
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:12):yeah, it would not be turning repr(C) rust structs into GC types and vice versa
it would be "I have type checked that the instance of this struct has the type parameters fields"
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:12):something like that
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:12):unclear what to do wrt recursion groups and nominal types
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:12):I was just thinking that heh
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:12):e.g. all the canonicalization that wasm-gc does
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:13):that'd be hard to reflect into Rust
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:13):I guess even if we restricted it to structural stuff, and had cyclic edges be supertypes, which would allow reading offsets of the underlying object directly, we would still need a dynamic type check when passing into a typed function
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:14):ok so maybe this isn't worth pursuing
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:14):or at least, not worth undoing what we have now
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:14):so while TypedFunc typechecks could go away we'll still need the type information in the future
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:14):might still be worth it even if it doesn't 100% solve the problem
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:14):Alex Crichton said:
so while
TypedFunctypechecks could go away we'll still need the type information in the future
right
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:14):it might be useful to have it available for simple cases yeah
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:15):right, but we can cross that bridge when we get to it
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:15):so back to this PR
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:15):realloc doesn't have an Instance
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:15):do you think there's any way we could like pass around the type index and then lazily turn that into a whole function type?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:15):I should go look at realloc again
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:15):it has a *mut wasmtime_runtime::ComponentInstance
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:15):oh wait though realloc is a vmfuncref?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):so there's a type in there?
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):we could stash the raw u32 of the VMSharedTypeIndex in there
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):oh is it?
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):checking
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):er wait hang on
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):this is true of all call_raw
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):we pass in vmfuncref so we can probably drop the &FuncType parameter
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:16):b/c we can load it lazily?
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:17):well going from VMSharedTypeIndex to FuncType still involves locking
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:17):I wonder if that may be the way to go though so long as it's lazy
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:17):to increment the associated registered reference count
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:18):keep integers/etc on the fast path
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:19):it is really annoying that wasmtime::FuncType and wasmtime_types::WasmFuncType are not the same thing
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:19):is there anything actually preventing them from being the sa,me?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:19):we could probably make them the same at this point
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:19):or well
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:19):I think ValType and WasmValType would still have to be different
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:19):FuncType has ValType which recursively includes FuncType
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:19):yeah
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:20):time to whip out ValType<T> again
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:20):but that's okay because we only expose params/returns publicly via impl ExactSizeIterator
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:20):so we could lazily do the translation at that level
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:20):I'm always down for merging the layers of abstration
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:20):it always feels like we have too many
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):(also it is annoying that we don't have VMSharedTypeIndex in the wasm_types crate for use in EngineOrModuleInternalIndex
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):)
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):okay, I agree this should be explored, but
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):we could move that though?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):that one's easy to move
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):I don't really want to do that in this PR
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):true
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:21):Alex Crichton said:
we could move that though?
Yeah I think so
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:22):fitzgen (he/him) said:
so we could lazily do the translation at that level
lmao we already do this lazily
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:22):we get the referenced WasmFuncType via our Arc and then lazily translate
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:23):so if it works for this PR I think it would be best to drop the &FuncType from call_raw
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:23):and somehow lazily load the type info from Engine if needed
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:24):alternatively you could eagerly load and see if you can measure a perf hit
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:24):okay so maybe I can:
WasmFuncType instead of FuncType fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:24):or your idea, but:
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:24):do we have a script or something for measuring RPS of wasmtime serve?
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:24):nah
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:24):I've never acrtually done that
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:24):"pick your favorite benchmarking tool"
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:25):you could also measure the call benchmark here too
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:25):that will probably show it being disproportionately bad though given how streamlined it is today
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:25):yeah, should do that either way (I suspect the way I implemented the dynamic checks could be improved to help the compiler boil some stuff away)
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:26):I think the call benchmarks aren't sufficient here tho
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:26):I feel like it's best though that we start with an index+engine combo and then derive info from there
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:26):because they are single threaded
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:26):oh you'd be surprised
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:26):uncontended locks are surprisingly expensive in that context
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:26):and if we are lazily constructing FuncTypes from VMSharedTypeIndexs that involves locking at the engine level
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:26):"how good is your rwlock with only readers"
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:27):right, it might show some overhead, but not the "full" overhead
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:27):agreed
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:27):we could in theory build a fancier data structure though
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:28):e.g. VMSharedTypeIndex could be proof of "this slot in this data structure is unchanging"
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:28):and then we could go from &Engine to &Slot via that proof
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:28):so with some elbow grease I think we could get the locks out of the way
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:28):I don't think so: that would require RAII which isn't possible with integrating with JIT code
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:28):I'm thinking the Module is "the RAII"
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:29):where e.g. we keep Module in a Store to keep it alive today
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:29):we could remove the locking by putting the registration count behind the Arc, and then having some other thing sweep the registry's hash consing map
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:29):(remove the locking for cloning and dropping and such, at least)
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:29):ish
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:30):not look up
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:30):I haven't thought this through fully
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:30):but like if we allowed 1K types maximum we could just have a Vec preallocated and you index into that
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:30):obviously not suitable but ... hm...
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:30):well anyway I think we should try the route of "don't pass in type info"
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:30):and see how that fares perf-wise
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:31):we can at least be perf-neutral with scalars
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:31):Alex Crichton said:
I'm thinking the
Moduleis "the RAII"
but then VMSharedTypeIndex itself isn't proof of anything, re are relying on the module existing and that uses have an associated module or whatever, which is pretty much teh situation we are already in
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:31):well I don't want to get too distracted with a half-baked idea I have
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:32):brb
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:32):Alex Crichton said:
we can at least be perf-neutral with scalars
we do have to call .next() on the param types iter for every param, so to be actually neutral it would require LLVM to be able to boil that away, which I am not sure it can or not
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:34):okay well lets start with looking up the funcref's FuncType and doing the read lock and measuring perf of that
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:34):and then we can decide what to do from there
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:37):(and I'm not gonna get to the benchmarking until after I finish writing these missing embedder API subtyping tests)
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:44):I'm imagining we'd pass in &LazyParam which has &Engine, usize, and VMSharedTypeIndex and then .get() loads everything
Alex Crichton (Feb 16 2024 at 17:44):so that way outside the loop is "just" bumping usize
fitzgen (he/him) (Feb 16 2024 at 17:45):yeah that makes sense
Last updated: Dec 23 2024 at 13:07 UTC